Sohrab Salimi (00:01.76)
Hi everyone, this is Sohrab from Agile Academy and this is the next episode in terms of getting to know our ambassadors. Today I'm hosting Pascal. Pascal and I have met many years ago when he was interested in becoming a certified Scrum trainer and I was one of the people that he got to speak to. I think it was at the Global Scrum Gathering either in Prague or Munich. So it must have been 2015 or 2016. So we go way back, 10 years more or less. And super excited to have Pascal as one of our ambassadors.
and talking to me today. Welcome to the show Pascal.
Pascal (00:35.222)
Yes, welcome. Thank you for having me. This is really a great opportunity to talk to you about this journey. It's actually been quite a while. I think it was in Prague and our conversation was really motivating and inspirational to me on my journey to become a certified scrum trainer.
Sohrab Salimi (00:50.068)
Yeah. So that must have been 2015.
Sohrab Salimi (01:02.624)
Yeah, great. So it is actually 10 years. Now, Pascal, we probably have to go back even more than 10 years because the first question I have for you is where did your personal agile journey start? What was the context? With whom were you working? What were the challenges that you were facing so that you were willing to try something new? Walk me through that a bit.
Pascal (01:25.622)
Yeah sure. So then we actually have to go back to the early 2000s and I was working as a developer and then lead developer in a small web project content management product company and we were struggling with what kind of process should we use and how should we approach this? And of course there were things like the spiral model and other sort of, in our opinion, overkill processes that were sort of recommended. But no process, chaos process, didn't work at all.
So we tried both and neither worked. then one day, and we had, we also made some early experiments with this thing called extreme programming. And I think that was maybe in 2003 or four. And we struggled because we, it was sort of like the steps were too high, sort of like.
if you try to walk up a pyramid like in Gizeh, yeah, we just couldn't do it. And we tried it and yes, the steps were too big for us. But then a colleague gave me this book, the first Ken Schwaber book.
Sohrab Salimi (03:10.794)
black one.
Pascal (03:11.31)
What's it called? Yeah, the black one. Yes. What's it called? Agile project management with Scrum or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. With Mike Beadle. Yeah. And that sounded like, oh yeah. In very abstract terms, that's describing our problem. And so I went like a week later, some Scrum Master course was offered by...
Sohrab Salimi (03:17.078)
Yeah, something like that, yeah.
Pascal (03:40.212)
Joseph Pelrine so I just went there and that was I think on a Wednesday and Thursday so on Monday we started.
Sohrab Salimi (03:49.692)
Okay, so you were one of those people that went to a Scrum Master training and immediately tried to put those things into practice. Now walk me through how that first experience was. So first of all, what happened during the training that convinced you to experiment with it? And then what were the first steps that you took with your team?
The first thing that convinced me is something like, okay, this has been done before. Somebody else has been successful. There were some stories that Joseph told us. And we sat down and I thought, well, okay, this is not too complicated. This is actually doable. And then, and I thought, it won't work in our context.
Pascal (04:40.418)
That was sort of my idea. And then I realized during that actually my context was a lot easier than the context of a lot of the other participants. And some of them had already started. So I thought, well, if they can do it, I can too. And I don't have a lot of their problems. And then, yeah, he was able to give sort of like concrete.
He had tips, first steps so that I could actually feel like this is possible and this, it really might make sense. So this encouraged me. That was sort of like encouragement and yeah, the spirit to just get started. That was what I took away from that training. Yeah.
Sohrab Salimi (05:28.138)
Yeah. Sometimes I like the fact how you phrase this, right? Initially, you had this feeling, this won't work in our context. There's just too many barriers, right? All of those excuses that probably also a lot of people find that attend your courses, that attend my courses, right? They have the same thought process. But then you took that extra step. You looked at everybody else in your course, and you're like, their context is way more difficult than mine, but they are...
Sohrab Salimi (05:56.106)
They dare to experiment with this, right? Earlier, before we started the recording, you talked about the book, Dare to Lead, right? From Brene Brown. So you dared to lead in this. You're like, yeah, it's not perfect, right? But what is perfect? So let's just experiment with it. Now, Pascal what was the reactions of your colleagues when you came back and maybe also your supervisors?
Sohrab Salimi (06:22.048)
But you said, this is what I want to do based on the learnings I had in the training.
Pascal (06:25.558)
Yeah, so at that time I was the lead of our engineering group, so I could sort of just decide that we're going to do this.
Well, it's really like looking back in hindsight, it's really interesting how many mistakes we like made in one single day when we started. I mean, it's just sort of like, okay, we're already doing something. So we don't need to do a sprint planning. Let's just do a daily scrum. We start with a daily scrum because we're already doing something. We don't need to plan. We've already planned. So we stood there and answered those three questions that were sort of part of scrum at the time.
and I had appointed somebody to be the product owner and yeah and the others were skeptical and then like about two hours later one of the engineers came in and says you know I told you this is not going to work and now it's not it's it's not working this colleague the product owner let's call him Marcus
He just came by and told me to implement some other stuff. That's not what the current feature is about. He said, well, hold on. We'll need to, let me clarify this. Or let me, yeah. And I was like, okay, this is sort of my first Scrum Master mission now. So I went and talked to Markus and Markus says, no.
Pascal (08:04.438)
that's he's starting to implement it again there was just an exchange of ideas
And so I went back and talked to Arne and said, well, don't worry. was, yeah. And I was just, gosh. Yeah. And so like within two hours and otherwise he would have started implementing it. And this was like a big feature. And I think during that those first two hours, we've already saved like several days of work.
Sohrab Salimi (08:18.762)
It was just an idea.
Sohrab Salimi (08:35.338)
Yeah, absolutely.
Pascal (08:36.182)
And that was like a wow experience and that was actually something that I still carry with me and that was one of those experiences that made me think or like made me pursue a career in scrum.
Sohrab Salimi (08:53.654)
Yeah, it's interesting. mean, in that short story that you shared, there's already so many nuggets, right? One is that developer, that engineer that approached you, he or she dared to speak up. Very important, right? Now, initially that person was saying, this is not working, right? But then you became curious about it. So what is not working? Walk me through that. What are your concerns, right?
Sohrab Salimi (09:20.246)
So you identify the impediment and then you go speak to that other person, which again, like one of those things that I see in almost every organization, there's so much miscommunication. There's so many misunderstandings. And if we just, and this is why the first sentence, right, individuals and interactions over processes and tools is so important. It's just sometimes about facilitating that conversation, making sure that we truly understand what we want from each other, create that alignment. And then sometimes,
Sohrab Salimi (09:49.694)
work evaporates, as you just mentioned. Sometimes we understand so much better why something is a priority. And sometimes we then better understand what are we supposed to implement in the first place, right? So that communication aspect was also very well described. So you decided to pursue a career in this. What were your next steps, Pascal?
Pascal (10:12.878)
Well, my first step was to establish this more within our immediate context and then I went to a global scrum gathering in Minneapolis quite early, I think it was in 2006 or 2007 or something like that and that really...
Pascal (10:41.922)
gave me even more motivation to do this. And I took a user story class with Mike Cohn and a retrospectives class with Esther Derby and Diana Larsen this is sort of, yeah. Yes, even though I didn't know that they were big names at the time. Yeah.
Sohrab Salimi (11:00.246)
So you met all the big names.
Sohrab Salimi (11:07.606)
Back then they were just names.
Pascal (11:10.474)
Yes, yes. so I still have the original planning poker cards from Mike Cohn that he gave me during that workshop. so then the next thing is I started teaching others. I started talking about retrospectives. They did little sort of workshops and we had a sort of
Sohrab Salimi (11:18.634)
Mountain goat, yeah.
Pascal (11:39.052)
little conference series that we were running. So I started talking about Agile and Scrum during those opportunities. And then I realized that staying within this environment is not going to sort of really help me pursue this career because I need to see other contexts and see other challenges. So I decided to go into to join the consulting business. So I left Berlin, went to Munich.
Sohrab Salimi (12:13.654)
So Pascal, went, yeah, yeah, okay. So what I'm not curious about, Pascal, you demonstrate very nicely how you went from practitioner that learned something, experiments with it, and then becomes a teacher of that thing, of that. In medicine, we refer to this as see one, do one, teach one, right? And you did that in your context. sorry, just a second. Not sure why my son is calling me when I'm working.
But and why it goes through, but don't worry about that. So where did your passion for teaching come from? Did you teach during university or was that something that you identified later in life that, hey, I'm very interested in this?
Pascal (13:05.942)
I sort of having the helpful mental tools and sort of being able to do something in doing something well because I understand something, that was something that has helped me.
That's a good question. That's a good question, Sohrab I'm trying to go back and I'm realizing that I need to go back further. yeah, so even during university, we had sort of like study groups. And it was fun to be part of a study group. And naturally, I became the one that explained everything. So yeah.
Sohrab Salimi (13:47.722)
Yeah, no, because that's what stuck with me from our first encounter. I remember back then, was like, this person is really interested in teaching. And so a lot of people pursue this career because they believe, right, this is like growth opportunity in terms of financial. All of that is good. I mean, I like making money. Everybody likes to make money. But some people, they really have that passion. And back then, when we met the first time, I realized that now the story that you're sharing,
Sohrab Salimi (14:17.216)
confirms it for me, you had that passion for teaching. So now let's fast forward a bit. You decided to leave the company that you were at. You joined a consulting company, which probably gave you, and correct me if I'm wrong, the opportunity to teach more and also learn more because you're now seeing many different contexts. When did you decide to more or less become, more or less, a full-time
Sohrab Salimi (14:45.98)
I know you do a bunch of other things in addition to training, but I assume it takes up still a significant portion of your time being a trainer, being a teacher.
Pascal (14:55.2)
Yeah, yeah, you're right. So after I left the company, that company at the time, yes, you're right, I had the opportunity to sort of co-create an agile certification program that was in-house and of course I was like, yeah, okay, let's do that and so that was fun but
At the same time, mean, in consulting, you somehow need to earn money. need to create billable hours. so teaching is not always, doesn't always fit well with this, this type of engagements. And so actually it took, it took me quite some time and it was in, in
early 2015 when I talked to Simon Roberts and he said, well, I mean, why don't you become a teacher? And I said, well, I don't know anything about agile. I'm just trying a little bit. and he, yeah, he actually convinced me that.
Pascal (16:12.472)
could actually pull this off and
Pascal (16:20.504)
So I thought that, well, okay, if I want to do this, then I need to connect with the community. And a few months later we met in Prague. Yeah.
Sohrab Salimi (16:28.182)
We met in Prague. Yeah. So you embark on this journey. Ultimately, when was it? 2017, 2018 that you became a CST, something like that? Yeah.
Pascal (16:39.502)
Yeah, so I became a, well, I bought on the journey sort of in 2015 and I became a CST in 2018. Yeah.
Sohrab Salimi (16:46.294)
Exactly, after we spoke. Yeah, in 2018. So that was a quite long journey. Now walk me through, again, fast forward a bit, also given that we have a time box that we want to keep, right, as Agile practitioners. Where do you spend your time today? Things have changed. Agile, that was a niche in 2003, 2004, when you started with this, has become mainstream. I think we can actually say that. A lot of people...
Sohrab Salimi (17:14.112)
have been through Scrum Master and product owner trainings. They've learned about this. A lot of organizations are transforming. Where do you spend most of your time today,
Pascal (17:27.31)
So initially I started off having two pillars. One is the sort of technical pillar. I'm a software engineer, so I know how to build software. And the other is I'm fascinated for good ways of people working together. And if we want to create great software, we need to have both of these. And so that was something that...
inspired me all along to have those two elements. And that's also a reason why I'm also teaching certified scrum developer courses and not just a scrum master and product owner. And yes, yes, that's really important. so I realized that many, many companies are struggling to really implement
Sohrab Salimi (18:11.232)
or agile engineering practices basically,
Pascal (18:26.622)
agile ways of working because of cultural and leadership issues. And it's sort of like you hit like a glass ceiling when you try to really change things. And so this is primarily some sort of leadership issue. And I looked around of like, what could we do? And I found a lot of inspiration in the Agile Leadership Journey with Pete Behrens
Pascal (18:54.23)
So I also became a Agile Leadership Journey Guide, yes. that was like a, that's something that I'm also doing like next week, I'm traveling to Grenoble to talk to 90 managers about catalyst leadership and the games we play. And...
Sohrab Salimi (18:56.936)
ALJ guide.
Sohrab Salimi (19:17.462)
The games people play, huh? It's interesting. So you have that technical pillar. You also have that collaboration pillar or human dynamics pillar. And I think there's not many people that can go very deep into the code, but can also connect with leadership.
Sohrab Salimi (19:42.388)
And I think one of the reasons I was also excited to have you as an ambassador, and we've been collaborating now for many years with you and your company, you have that ability to dive into the code, but also talk to leadership and demonstrate to them how to get rid of that glass ceiling. And getting rid of it is not just by killing management or leadership or whatever you want to call it.
Sohrab Salimi (20:09.258)
but actually focusing on the aspects that only leaders within organizations can do. Now, when you speak to leaders, Pascal, what are some of the key messages you share with them? You talked about catalyst leadership a bit earlier, but make it a bit more tangible for the audience.
Pascal (20:28.482)
Well, I think one of the important aspects is that as a leader you need to be able to create a space in which others can excel.
Pascal (20:43.37)
not just put a carrot in front of them and make them pursue that carrot, but really create a space and create the sort of culture that enables a company to create value in this environment. And this is not a one-size-fits-all. For every company, there needs to be a different culture. And if you have like
electricity supplier. Of course, dependency and planning and reliability is really important. And if you have a company like Gore, they create new products like Gore-Tex. And so their company, their culture will need to be very different. And it's really essential for leaders to
Pascal (21:46.486)
understand what their company needs and be able to carve and create the culture in which the company, this company can excel.
Sohrab Salimi (21:57.974)
Absolutely, absolutely. Now you gave an example of W.L. Gore and a utilities company. Vinci in France is, for example, one of those utility companies. And both of them are covered as case studies in the book Humanocracy from Gary Hamel and Michele Zanini Now what I, and I 100 % agree with you, cultures within organizations based on the industry, based on the history, based on the geography maybe even,
needs to be different, also based on the outcomes that the organization wants to achieve. But what I've found reading through those books, talking to a lot of those leaders, one thing that almost all of these organizations have in common is, yes, their cultures are different, but one aspect is they all put the human being front and center. Now, what I would be interested in is you're also doing a lot of work in the space of AI.
with your engineering background, right? You're also curious a lot and you want to also teach these elements. How do you think this human element, right? Putting people front and center will change or will it change in the age of AI?
Pascal (23:11.788)
That's a really good question. many, the AI is some sort of technical thing and there's also this sort of it's me or is it AI and will I be replaced by a lot lots of fear? And last year we did a an AI leadership lab. And so we had like a six year, six months journey with other leaders and talking about and experimenting with
AI and how it changes leadership. And one of the things that we discovered is that it actually helps us connect better with humans. AI is really good at taking different perspectives and having a sparrings partner, having
There's a lot of ways that you can use AI to improve your leadership that improves your human connection abilities. And that is really powerful.
Sohrab Salimi (24:21.974)
Yeah, I think that's an interesting take. one of our fellow trainers, Henrik Kniberg I attended one of the trainings with him around AI and he would constantly say, human plus AI equals magic. Emphasizing on it's ultimately both of us, right? The AI just being the AI, there's not a lot of worth to it. The human that is not leveraging the AI, probably also not going to be that successful. But if you put those two things together,
then something beautiful can be the result of that, or magic can emerge. Now, Pascal, we are at the end of our time box. I wanted to use this opportunity again to say thank you for also trusting in the Agile Academy and embarking on this journey with us as an ambassador. We're super happy to have you and some of your other colleagues at Colnet being ambassadors with us. And yeah, thank you so much for this conversation today.
Pascal (25:18.21)
Thank you very much. I'm really excited for this journey that we are embarking on here. So looking forward to all the things that will come.
