Tim Klein
A new episode of the Produktwerker podcast. Today’s guest is once again Sohrab Salimi from the Agile Academy, joining Tim. The two of them discuss continuing education for Product Owners and what kinds of practical, hands-on learning options are available. We hope you enjoy the conversation and gain some fresh insights from this episode.
Personal growth is something we product people should really think about every day. In reality, though, I’d say it often gets buried in the chaos of day-to-day business. That’s why we want to revisit the topic today. What kinds of learning paths are there? What kinds of development paths? Do certifications make sense, and if so, when and where? I’ve brought in a guest to talk this through.
A repeat guest in the best sense of the word: Sohrab Salimi. I’m happy you’re back with me for another recording. Welcome, dear Sohrab.
Sohrab Salimi
Thanks, Tim. I’m really glad to be back. I think I’m running neck and neck with Markus Andrezak and maybe one or two others when it comes to how often I’ve been on your podcast. Let’s see who ends up with the most appearances by the end of this episode.
Tim Klein
I'll have to check again. For those who haven't been with us that long: we’ve had two or three, maybe even four people join us for the fourth or fifth time. Simply because they’re good, and they bring valuable topics. You’ve been here discussing all sorts of themes. I remember our most recent talk about the Product Operating Model around Marty Cagan. That was, I believe, late 2023 already.
You’ve been on before to talk strategy too. We’ll definitely link those episodes in the show notes. Some of our listeners know you from Cologne. You’ve been a long-standing collaborator of ours. One of my very first contacts in the agile scene, actually, going back to the Cologne Scrum Meetup. You’ve gathered quite a bit of experience in the global Scrum community.
You served on the Board of Directors at the Scrum Alliance. If I remember correctly, you’ve been a Certified Scrum Trainer (CST) since 2015. Thanks to your global network, you also bring in perspectives that go far beyond the Scrum Alliance itself. You’re well connected. You’ve produced your own podcasts and video formats, and you’ve led some really great conversations. You’ve shared valuable content with the community on topics like agile leadership, strategy, and more. But now I’ve said more than enough. Maybe even made a few mistakes. What else should people know about you?
Sohrab Salimi
Gladly. We can’t assume that everyone listening today has also heard all the other Produktwerker episodes. To those who already know me well, please forgive the brief intro. My background is actually in medicine. From there I moved into strategy consulting with Bain & Company, where I stayed for nearly three years. After that, I went independent and got involved in my parents’ IT company, helping build things up. That’s when I more or less stumbled into Scrum. I saw it firsthand in a software development team.
And I saw the incredibly positive effect it could have. Especially how quickly you can learn that you’re building the wrong thing. As a product manager or Product Owner, that is a fascinating insight. From there, more or less by accident, I rediscovered my love for adult education and training. I had the chance to receive a lot of mentorship and learned what goes into designing and delivering great trainings. I worked with some outstanding people. Gabrielle Benefield, Henrik Kniberg (whom many know from the Spotify videos), Reza Farhang, and several folks from the German agile community.
Like you said, I became a Certified Scrum Trainer in 2015 and held that role for nearly ten years. At the end of 2024, I decided to leave the Scrum Alliance. We’ll probably dive into that a bit more in today’s conversation. I have since built something of my own in that area. Let’s keep that open for later in the discussion. On the personal side, I’ve got three kids who keep me on my toes. And I’m happily based in Cologne.
Tim Klein
I can say the same for myself. Cologne locals among themselves. You mentioned some important points, and we will explore those in more detail in a moment. It really is a pivotal moment to say: you spent many years preparing to become a Certified Scrum Trainer. Then you spent ten years delivering excellent training to a large number of people.
With your original company, the Scrum Academy, and later the Agile Academy, you professionalized many formats through an inspect and adapt approach that is truly impressive. If you want to meet someone who improves their training a little bit every single time, then you should take a look at Sohrab’s work. We also had the chance to join a few sessions as co-trainers, especially Oli.
The standard was very high. And then came your decision at the end of 2024 to give up your CST status. That means your authorization to deliver certification training for the Scrum Alliance. You made that choice because you had started thinking deeply about how learning paths and development paths should really be designed.
We have already had several conversations about this behind the scenes over the past few months. Now we want to bring some of that into this episode. But let’s begin with the individual perspective. Whether you are a Product Owner, Product Leader, Scrum Master, Agile Coach, or however you define yourself. Many people stumbled into the field by taking a foundation training or at least earning a basic certificate. Often, that is still seen as a requirement for certain jobs. Something like, you must at least have a CSPO, if we stick with the product track, or some other form of Product Owner certification. Or the equivalent, like a PSM I from Scrum.org.
So what happens next? We have already done a few episodes about how to continue your learning journey. What options are available? What is your take on all this? As Produktwerker, we have always taken a fairly critical and distanced view of certifications. Sure, we have those certifications ourselves as providers. But so far, we have never actually offered certification training. That may change in the future. Let’s go back to the beginning of your career as a Scrum Trainer. How did you view the training business and the certification business, especially from the perspective of individuals who want to take charge of their own development?
Sohrab Salimi
Maybe it makes sense to go back even one step further, to before I became a trainer. Why did I even want to become one in the first place? As I briefly mentioned earlier, we had started using Scrum in one of our software teams. I am actually quite the autodidact in many respects. I got my hands on the Scrum Guide, read it cover to cover, and thought to myself, this cannot be that hard. It was, I do not know, 15 or 16 pages depending on the language version. So I figured, no problem, I can do this.
And when you come from a medical background, maybe you tend to overestimate yourself from time to time. So I thought, this is not rocket science. I will just go ahead and do it. And honestly, it went quite well. We saw early on that compared to how we had developed products before, we were already much better. But of course, we made a few rookie mistakes.
Sohrab Salimi
When you read the Scrum Guide, at least the version back then, it talked about different roles. Today they are called accountabilities, not roles. But it did not explicitly say you could not hold two of those roles at the same time. Of course, you can dive deeper into additional literature, books by Mike Cohn or others. But on our very first project, I was both the Product Owner and the Scrum Master.
Pretty quickly I realized that this was painful. And I also saw that one of the two roles, at least in my case the Scrum Master role, suffered massively. After about six months, and it took that long only because no one else wanted to take on the role, I stepped out of the double role. For learning purposes, it was actually quite valuable. It showed me that this is an anti-pattern and that it does not work well. Maybe it is not the worst thing to approach the topic like that in the first two to six months. But I do believe it is worth reading the Scrum Guide in detail.
Today there is much more literature available. Podcasts like yours. Lenny’s podcast, and many others. There is so much you can use to learn on your own. But still, in practice, you run into challenges. When I faced those kinds of challenges and joined my first Scrum training with Gabby Benefield, I did not find the training valuable because of the theory. What made it valuable was the opportunity to engage with Gabby, to ask her questions. What impressed me was that she did not just give theoretical answers. She could give me three, four, or five real-life examples from her own work in different industries.
That made me want to become a trainer. I knew being good on paper would not be enough. I had to make sure I gained a lot of practical experience. And it happened fairly quickly. The training with Gabby was in late 2013. Two years later, I became a CST.
Sohrab Salimi
I never thought, now I am a CST and all I will do is training. I always said, no more than 50 percent of my time should go into training. That does not mean I would be putting my feet up for the rest of the time. I wanted to be embedded in real teams, continuously applying what I taught. That is how I wanted to create value, but more importantly, collect new stories.
Gabby set the benchmark for me. And others too. If you look at Henrik Kniberg, it is the same. Training is something he does out of passion, to share his knowledge and experience. But he tries to spend as much time as possible applying the things he talks about. That strongly reminded me of my own education in medicine.
None of our professors were full-time teachers. They were heads of departments in clinics. They spent seven out of eight hours operating and one hour teaching. That means only 12.5 percent of their time went into instruction. The other 87.5 percent, assuming eight-hour days, was spent applying their craft and further developing their expertise.
That was always extremely important to me. When I started thinking about how I wanted to approach my role as a trainer, that was my foundation. And it already begins with how you design your courses. Oli co-trained several sessions with me. You attended some of them as a participant. And for me, it was always important that those trainings had real-world relevance. I wanted people to apply what they were learning right then and there. That way, the barrier to applying it later in their own organization, their own team, and their own product would be much lower.
Tim Klein
We also get a lot of feedback, and very positive feedback at that, when we include real-life examples in our trainings. At the beginning of my sessions, I often say that I have probably made nearly every mistake a Product Owner can make. Maybe not all of them, but definitely many. My first Product Owner and Scrum Master training was in early 2012, I believe, with Stefan Roock, a respected colleague.
Just like your experience with the Scrum Guide, I thought I had understood it far too quickly. Understanding the Scrum framework on a cognitive level is simple. Implementing it is hard. The Scrum Guide itself says so. It took me quite a while to internalize the idea of empirical process control, the principles behind Scrum, and the Scrum values. Over time, I started to understand how to apply the framework properly. Before that, I was probably performing what some call agile theater.
So I believe, and I think you would agree, that it is important to make certain mistakes yourself. Like the anti-pattern of holding two roles at the same time. You make the mistake, you learn from it. In product management today, people often say that if you are looking for a mentor or a coach, it should be someone who can say, "I've been there, done that." Someone who has lived it, experienced it, and can pass that knowledge on. I can relate to that very well.
It has been quite a journey. Over the years, you have delivered many training sessions. I had the chance to attend some of them. The feedback you received for your work was excellent. At some point, you decided to stop offering Scrum Master training. Later, you also reduced the number of Product Owner sessions and shifted your focus more toward Agile Leadership education. What happened that led you to give up your CST status?
Tim Klein
There are fewer than 40 CSTs in Germany today, right? Or in the DACH region? I think the number is somewhere between 35 and 40, maybe even less. Scrum.org has a few more, but CST is still a rare qualification. Oli followed that path for a long time before he eventually decided not to continue. The certification process is intense. Achieving it as quickly as you did is unusual. It normally takes three or four years. Your colleague Jan Neudecker, who now works with you, also spent several years working toward his CST, as far as I know.
So you had something valuable in your hands. And then you decided to give it up. What happened?
Sohrab Salimi
As with many things in life, there were several reasons. Let me walk you through what happened in my journey as a trainer. When I became a CST in 2015, I was number 12 or 13 in the DACH region. Globally, there were fewer than 200 CSTs. I was one of the youngest and got very involved in the community. I always found that exciting and learned a lot from truly outstanding people.
I mentioned Mike Cohn earlier. His books are a must-read in the agile world. He was part of the CST community. So was Lisa Atkins, author of "Coaching Agile Teams." I met many of these people personally and gained an incredible amount from those interactions.
In 2018, I was elected to the Board of Directors. That was a huge honor. It was a three-year term that lasted until the end of 2020. As a board member, I tried to help shape the organization. That is what the role is about. I wanted to move things in a direction that I believed made sense. Of course, people can have different views about what is right or wrong.
Because of my background in medicine, I knew that about one thousand years ago, the first medical institutions were created. And they were created for a reason. Before that, anyone could call themselves a healer or doctor. Some were good. Many were not. Today we might call the latter snake oil salesmen. That often resulted in poor outcomes. I am not talking about money, but about outcomes for patients.
Patients cannot easily tell if someone is a skilled doctor or just pretending to be one. When medical faculties were established in Europe and the Middle East, they brought structure and professionalism into the field. I believe you can only speak of a profession when the training and qualification system is itself professional.
Those institutions improved both quality and quantity. More people could be trained, and they were trained better. Medical education is still not perfect today, but it has improved step by step over the centuries. The scientific method and the focus on empirical learning helped raise the level of quality.
That is the kind of development I envisioned for product work. If you look at the three roles in the Scrum framework — Product Owner, Developer, and Scrum Master — and compare that to how most companies apply them, you will often see people trying their best, but not doing it well. And that is not a personal failure. They simply do not know any better. People become better when someone helps them grow.
That was my motivation. While I was on the Scrum Alliance board, I fought hard to promote that way of thinking. But the conversations I wanted never really happened. Other board members did not see things the same way. I told myself I would go all in for those three years and try to make a difference. Maybe I was not effective enough. There are probably reasons for that. But after those three years, I realized that my goals were not aligned with those of the organization.
By the end of 2020, I was not yet ready to leave the Scrum Alliance. Then another opportunity came along. I got involved in shaping learning objectives. These are the expected learning outcomes for a specific path. As you mentioned earlier, I had already stopped offering Scrum Master trainings around 2020 or 2021. I still did a few Product Owner sessions on the side, but my main focus had become Agile Leadership.
The Scrum Alliance approached me about the learning objectives for Agile Leadership. At the time, I had delivered more trainings on the topic than anyone else in the world. I said yes and joined a working group with three others. They were all from the United States. I was the only one based elsewhere. We worked on the learning objectives with the intention of strengthening professional development for leaders.
I think we did a solid job on the objectives for Certified Agile Leader Level 1. I still stand behind that work. But with Level 2, I noticed that things were going in a different direction. Instead of focusing on real-world application, the attention shifted. Level 1 is a theoretical course, even if it can be taught in a practical way.
The goal of Level 1 is to raise awareness and build a basic understanding of the topic.
Tim Klein
Let me jump in quickly. This is essentially the same analogy for Product Owner trainings. For those Product Owners listening, the Level 1 course — the foundation course like CSPO or PSPO I — is exactly about understanding. Building awareness. What is the idea behind the Product Owner role in the Scrum framework? These courses often include a lot of Scrum framework content. But at first, as Ralph Kruse nicely puts it, it is like getting an American driver’s license.
Exactly like that. Sometimes it is more of a participation certificate. Sometimes there is a relatively easy certification test. At Scrum.org, for example. You can argue about whether it is easy or hard, but it is definitely manageable. It demonstrates understanding on a theoretical level. That is what Level 1 certification offers in the Product Owner space.
And I thought the analogy was important. Because Level 2 is where you come in.
Sohrab Salimi
Exactly. And for me, Level 2 was always the hope that we could create something where we actually support people in applying what they have learned. And if we are going to issue a certificate, it should mean something. It should not just be something to post on LinkedIn. For the person receiving it, it should say: I earned this. I really did something to deserve it.
At the same time, it should also be a seal of quality for others — for example, for someone reviewing a job application. Of course, you do not hire someone based on a certificate alone. No one hires a doctor just because they are licensed either. There is still an interview. Sometimes trial days are part of the process, especially when it comes to senior roles. People have to perform, and their skills are evaluated. That is where craftsmanship comes into focus. But you do not even get invited to apply for a senior medical position unless you have completed your specialty training.
That was my hope — to give certifications value beyond just a logo on a PDF. Not because of financial gain, but because it would represent something meaningful. A real quality standard.
But I realized that the organization did not share that goal. The main question there was: how can we get as many people as possible into the system? The focus was clearly on revenue, rather than on the value being delivered. And for someone who thinks in terms of product, someone who lives this idea of customer obsession — as Amazon puts it, or the way Marty Cagan describes it in his books — it simply was not enough.
For someone like me, that was too little. I thought, we can do better. And then I asked myself: I turned 42 last year, now I am 43. I have another 20 good years ahead of me, maybe more. Do I want to accept things as they are, or do I want to change something?
I had some very meaningful conversations, including with people like you. We met for coffee back then, just to get the perspective of someone from outside the Scrum Alliance trainer community. I also talked to many of my customers — especially people from HR and learning and development, as well as those working hands-on as product managers — to find out whether the vision I had was just wishful thinking or whether others also saw the gap.
And I realized I was not alone. There are many people who see the same problem and who want more quality and more ambition in their learning journeys. That was the point where I decided to take the risk. If I did not do it now, I would regret it later. And since the beginning of this year, I think we have made great progress.
Tim Klein
Right, and we should be a bit more explicit here. You did not just step away from your Certified Scrum Trainer status. You also launched something new under the Agile Academy name. That was the name of your company before, but now it works in a fundamentally different way. You are building a network around it — a broad network of trainers, of thought leaders, what you call the Agile Academy Ambassadors.
To put it simply, in the end it is the three of us — Oliver, Dominique, and I — who are also involved. But we had some long and deep discussions about it because we wanted to take a critical look at the idea. I remember we met — I think it was in late autumn last year — and you pitched the idea to me for the first time. And as you know, when someone asks for my feedback, it can be a bit blunt at first.
That is just how I am. I said, what for? I was already no longer convinced by the certification systems from Scrum Alliance, Scrum.org, and others. And I had this idea in my head — do we really need certifications anymore? Isn’t it ultimately about being effective in the role? If we stick with the Product Owner role, isn’t it about performing well in practice?
You mentioned craftsmanship earlier. I find that idea compelling. Craftsmanship is hard to translate. It includes things like technical skill, mastery of the craft, and a sense of pride in the work. And I have to say it openly — that is exactly where the name Produktwerker comes from.
That is the idea we built our name on back in 2019 — driving craftsmanship in product work. That has been our mission from the start.
So back then I asked you the question — and again at the beginning of this year when things became more concrete and you approached us — whether we, either individually or as a team, wanted to join this Agile Academy initiative as Ambassadors. The idea was that we would align parts of our own training offerings with this new certification concept.
And yes, I had to be convinced. I asked some tough questions. My very first question was — and maybe we can revisit this — Sohrab, do you really believe that people today, whether individuals or organizations, still need certifications at all, regardless of who provides them?
Sohrab Salimi
You forgot to mention the real turning point. It was that dinner we had together. I took you to a Persian restaurant, and after that, you said, no matter what happens, I am in.
Tim Klein
No, no. The tough discussions happened before that. Besides, the dinner was the result of a lost bet. I was just paying up.
Sohrab Salimi
All good. Now, to your question. Do certifications still matter? I have always looked at it from two perspectives. My short answer is yes. Why? Nobody today would go out and say, I am looking for a doctor who never completed medical school. No one would do that. Maybe you would go to a naturopath, but even then, you make sure they are officially licensed. You would not just trust someone who woke up one morning and decided to open a practice.
That is also illegal in Germany. You could argue that medicine is different because patients can be harmed. I agree with that. But most companies, when they are looking for talent, want some kind of signal. A certification serves as an initial filter. Otherwise, they receive hundreds of applications and cannot spend three hours interviewing each one. It does not work.
That is the reality from an HR or recruiting perspective. I am not even talking about internal development yet. Just the formal hiring process. Certifications play an important role there. Do we see an inflation of certificates? Probably. That means we also need to look closely at who is doing the certifying. That is critical. One of the most important responsibilities for an organization is to build trust in its own brand.
From the HR side, that trust matters. Now let’s look at it from the individual’s perspective. Certifications can help you get on a recruiter’s radar. They also help you make sure that you are not just winging it, as Americans would say. You are not improvising or making it up as you go. You are trying to work seriously. I do not like the term best practices because I believe there is always a better way. But at least you learn good practices. You can build on those. You can ask yourself how to apply them to your context. Whether you gain that knowledge through a stack of books or through a certified course is another question. But it is a valid approach.
Many people learn best through interaction. Even for someone like me, who is mostly self-taught, I saw real value in that kind of course. So how do I decide which course to take? If I am not someone who has been listening to Produktwerker for four years and is keen to engage with Tim, Oli, and Dominique, I will probably search online. And when I do, I see twenty different providers offering product development or product management training, if not more.
How do I decide which one to trust? Back then, I did not know Gabby at all. I googled, saw a bunch of different providers, and I knew I wanted someone who taught in English. I deliberately wanted to look beyond the German-speaking community. That is how I found Gabby. I noticed several things that spoke in her favor. First, she was a Certified Scrum Trainer with the Scrum Alliance.
Second, Jeff Sutherland — one of the two creators of Scrum — had written a testimonial on her website. He stated clearly that she was the only one he worked with in the UK. Third, I saw that she had spent years at Yahoo. Where someone used to work can also be seen as a kind of credential. And I thought, this fits with what I am looking for. At the time, I had not seen any talks by her or anything like that. It was not as widespread back then as it is today.
So I had to base my decision on those little bits of information. And if you are someone who has no prior knowledge of the field, it helps to know which organization accredited the trainer.
Tim Klein
But let me bring the thread back around. What does the Agile Academy do — this new body of certification, if we want to call it that? What is actually different about it? Or to ask it more pointedly: is this just another Scrum Alliance or Scrum.org? Or what exactly sets this approach apart?
Sohrab Salimi
There are a few things. First, both Scrum Alliance and Scrum.org — with the exception of their leadership tracks — are still very much tied to one framework. I will say it deliberately like that. I love the Scrum framework. This is not about me disliking Scrum. But I believe Scrum is not everything. The moment you talk about scaling, you need more than Scrum. Leadership is one example of that.
Craftsmanship in the role of a product manager or Product Owner is not reflected in Scrum either. You have to go beyond that. And then there are many other contexts where people operate in different ways. That is why we deliberately said: our umbrella concept is agility. Or perhaps even more broadly — agility with the aim of fostering innovation, continuous improvement, and similar goals.
Scrum is only one element under that umbrella. So we have defined concrete, structured learning paths in areas like Design Thinking, Kanban, OKRs, psychological safety, and scaling — but without being tied to a specific framework. That means it is not a SAFe, LeSS, or Scrum@Scale training. Instead, we teach the underlying patterns of scaling. We also cover topics like change management and transformation.
These are things I encounter at almost every client, where people face serious challenges. And there are many more. By now, we have defined around 25 learning paths. These allow practitioners to build real craftsmanship in each area. That is our first major point of differentiation.
Tim Klein
Let me quickly jump in here, because this is a good moment to mention it. As you said earlier, after many discussions we decided to join this model and actively participate. For each of these 25 learning paths, there is a designated Track Owner. And I will just mention it briefly — then you can elaborate on what that means.
Oliver — our Oliver Winter — now holds the Track Owner role for the Product Owner learning path. And our Dominique Winter is the Track Owner for Agile UX and is actively shaping that path. We are proud to be part of this and to help shape these learning journeys in the areas of Product Ownership and Agile UX.
Sohrab Salimi
Exactly, absolutely. That would have been my second point of differentiation. As an organization, we do not claim to define all these learning paths ourselves. Honestly, I could not have created every one of them on my own anyway. But I consciously said, I should not be the one doing it. We should bring in people who specialize in each specific area. I stepped back from regular Product Owner trainings a year and a half or two years ago. I knew it was still a focus area for Oli and for you too. But I asked both of you. Oli had the time and stepped forward.
For Oli, this is a core topic. So why shouldn’t someone like Oli Winter take ownership of what a learning path like this looks like? Same goes for Dominique and for others.
A third key difference is what happens within each learning path. This is exactly what I had once tried to push for inside the Scrum Alliance. There is still a Level 1 course. That is for people who have little or no prior knowledge of the topic and want to understand what it is about. Level 1 is about understanding. I understand what this topic is about.
But once we move to Level 2, it is not about five or ten more models. It is about application. Our Level 2 is called Apply. Only people who have actually worked in the role for at least a year, as a rule of thumb, should join a Level 2 course. Why? Because they need to bring real-world challenges from their daily work into the course. And not just a few participants — everyone. In Level 1 courses, you often have one or two experienced people who share their challenges. But most others cannot relate to those situations yet. For them, it is just theory.
Tim Klein
And in that case, knowledge transfer is enough. But in Level 2, where it is about application, that is where the real learning happens.
Sohrab Salimi
Exactly. And that is also where the trainer’s role changes. The trainer now plays two roles. First, they facilitate the exchange between participants. I have believed from day one that people should not come to my training just to learn from me. Of course I am there for that too. But they should also learn from each other. Especially when participants come from different companies, that peer exchange is one of the most valuable aspects.
We assume that participants bring a similar level of experience, but different kinds of challenges. This allows them to contribute and learn from each other. The second role of the facilitator is to build on the participants’ real-world challenges and add deeper content based on their own storyline or expertise. So it is both. In Level 1, the focus is mostly on teaching. In Level 2, it is peer exchange and deeper learning.
And Level 3 for us is called Teach. That was one of the things that really bothered me at the Scrum Alliance. I was lucky. I got through the CST process quickly, like you mentioned earlier. That was thanks to Gabby Benefield. I still don’t know why, but she made it her personal mission to support me. She connected me with all sorts of people and told them, you should absolutely train with Sohrab.
She even made sure I got letters of recommendation. I still don’t know why she did that. Maybe she was impressed. Maybe that is just how she is. I don’t know. But it made my path to becoming a trainer very systematic and relatively fast. Many others — like Jan, who you mentioned earlier — struggled for years just to find the right people to collaborate with.
So for us, a Level 3 course is a train-the-trainer program. Why put unnecessary barriers in people’s way if they bring passion and the skills needed to become a great Product Owner trainer, for example? Let’s create a structured program behind it, with strong didactic methods and high-quality standards. That way, we can help people on their journey to becoming trainers in a more structured way. Not with lower standards, but with a more reliable path.
Tim Klein
Exactly. And that is the part that really convinced me — that this learning path, Understand, Apply, Teach, is so practice-oriented. It is designed and delivered by experienced practitioners. Not by a centralized organization that might have a limited view and limited knowledge.
And something we might not have mentioned yet, but that also really convinced me, is the high level of openness built into the Agile Academy’s learning paths. No matter where someone got their previous certifications, they can still join. Until now, it was often the case that you had to go all the way with Scrum Alliance, or all the way with Scrum.org, or with Scrum Inc., and so on. We are breaking that pattern completely with this new approach.
It does not matter where someone completed their Level 1 — their understanding phase. Even if it was with Scrum.org, they should be able to enter our Level 2 Apply phase. For example, advanced training for product people. Oliver is already offering the first one this fall. So it doesn’t matter where someone comes from — they can join, and the program is not exclusive or competitive.
Compared to other organizations, what I find exciting is that you even participated as a sponsor at the Global Scrum Gathering in Munich, which is organized by Scrum Alliance. And some might ask, is that not direct competition? But I see it more as an additive offering. It complements not only the Scrum framework organizations we’ve talked about, but also Kanban-related groups, Design Thinking learning tracks, and many more.
So it is really a holistic model around agility and product development. That was the point in our internal discussions where we said, yes, we are in. We are willing to join the experiment. And it is worth mentioning that this new Agile Academy setup has already attracted, correct me if I am wrong, 80 or even more ambassadors worldwide.
Maybe you can tell us a bit about this international network that we now also have access to. To everyone listening, if you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me, to Oliver, or to Dominique directly. We will be happy to give you a clear and unfiltered view of how we see things. Of course, you can also contact Sohrab directly. We will include contact details again in the podcast blog post.
So what is this network about? Who is part of it? What kind of people are involved? Are there other CSTs or PSTs among them? Let’s take a quick look at that before we wrap up.
Sohrab Salimi
Gladly. You already used the word holistic. For me, that means we cover a broad range of topics. But the other point you might be hinting at is that we are inclusive. And I do not just mean inclusive in the sense of diversity, equity, and inclusion — although yes, that matters too, and we are certainly not against it. But more importantly, we are inclusive across different organizations.
As you rightly said, if someone has already completed Level 1 as a CSPO or PSPO, they can join our Level 2 without any problems. They do not have to take Level 1 with us. We actually go one step further.
One of the things that always bothered me about Scrum Alliance was that people had to renew their certificates every two years. It felt a bit like Inspector Gadget. I don’t know if you remember him, Tim — he always got those messages that would self-destruct after three seconds. That two-year expiration on Scrum Alliance certificates always felt like the certificate would just disappear. As if you suddenly forgot everything you had learned.
Later, when I was on the board, I found out that about a third of the organization’s revenue came from recertifications. And if a third of your income depends on that, it is hard to walk away from it — regardless of whether you believe it is the right thing to do.
That is why we said from day one: if someone earns a certificate with us, it is valid for life. If someone already has a Level 1 certificate from Scrum Alliance, we simply match it. They get a Level 1 certificate from us, without having to take a course or pass a test. And they no longer have to pay 100 dollars every two years just to keep it valid. That was one of the first things I wanted to change.
Tim Klein
Let me quickly ask a follow-up question. What if someone has reached the Understand level entirely through hands-on experience or self-study and now wants to take a Level 2 Apply course — for example, one of Oliver’s?
Sohrab Salimi
That person is also welcome to join a Level 2 course directly. They would receive a Level 2 certificate, even without holding a Level 1 certificate. For example, someone might have studied everything on their own. Or maybe they have young children and cannot just leave for a two- or three-day course somewhere else.
We also offer self-paced learning options — high-quality e-learning content. You mentioned earlier that we have raised the bar on quality. I think we have done a really good job when it comes to e-learning.
For a relatively low price, around 250 euros, you can access the Product Owner Masterclass. That includes over 20 hours of video content and exercises that participants must complete. It is almost identical to what happens in a live course. And at the end, there is a certification test for Level 1, just like you would have after attending a live in-person training.
We want to be inclusive in that regard too. We know that not everyone has the financial or logistical flexibility to attend a live class. Even though I am personally a big fan of live courses — and especially of in-person courses. Yes, we all used virtual courses during COVID, and they do work. But they are not my preferred method.
Still, we want to offer people as many options as possible.
Tim Klein
I will include the links to the self-paced course in the show notes, as well as the link to Oliver's upcoming training that I have mentioned a few times now. So if you are interested in self-learning or self-paced formats, check the show notes or the blog post. You will find direct links there.
Sohrab Salimi
Perfect. Thanks, Tim. And now back to your question about the Ambassador Network. We deliberately use the term Ambassador because we do not want to reduce these individuals to just being trainers or coaches. The people we bring into the Ambassador Network — and I think the three of you from Produktwerker are a great example — are all practitioners. Every single one of you.
Dominique, for instance, still works in a company as a practitioner alongside his freelance work. Second, you all bring the ability to teach. And third, you can do more than just consult. Let me put it this way: a consultant tells you what to do, but a coach helps you discover your own approach. You are all of those — trainer, consultant, coach — and at the same time, you are practitioners.
That is how we define our Ambassadors. The first step someone needs to complete is to become accredited as an Ambassador. That means going through the Ambassador accreditation process. In your case, it was a bit easier, because we have known each other for what feels like ten years and worked together many times. There was no point in asking you to submit a formal application. That would have made no sense.
Tim Klein
Well, I still had to fill out that whole form and do the questionnaire. Maybe it just went through a little faster.
Sohrab Salimi
Fair enough. But yes. In the first phase, we recruited people we already knew from around the world. Whether it was Ethan in China, Patrice Petit in France, or Lonnie in Minneapolis. These are people I have known for years — and not just through the Scrum Alliance. I have always been a connector, similar to you, Tim.
I’ve exchanged ideas with people across different communities. That could be the Scrum Alliance crowd, the Scrum.org circle, or even people who don’t fit into any specific bubble — like Markus Andrezak or Holger Nils Pohl. Or people like Marty Cagan, whom I interviewed. He comes from a completely different product world. The same goes for Petra Wille and others.
Many of these individuals were early members of the Agile Academy Ambassador Network. They said, this is something I want to be part of. Some are more actively involved — like you, Oli, and Dominique — while others are less involved but still want to be Ambassadors and help educate people based on these learning paths.
We benefit enormously from the network we have built over the last ten or twelve years. And I think that is a beautiful thing. Many of the people in the network already know one another. That creates a side effect, which for me is almost as important as everything we have discussed so far.
One thing I care deeply about is this: people like you and me — people working alone or in small groups, in small companies. You, for instance, work in a cooperative model at Produktwerker. It is often hard for us to get access at the highest levels within large organizations.
Because who gets in at the top? McKinsey. Or my former employer Bain, or BCG, or firms like that. Why? Because they have scale. They have a brand. My goal — and this is how I would define the success of the Agile Academy — is that our Ambassadors are the ones who make it to the top.
Why? Because, first, we are seen as the leading authority on agility, innovation, and related topics. We are people with practical knowledge, not just theory like a McKinsey consultant. Many of us have decades of experience in product development. Like you said earlier — with all the mistakes that come with it.
And second, because we are able to scale. And by scaling, I do not mean implementing a scaling framework. I mean that if a multinational company needs support across continents, our Ambassador Network is able to deliver that. Not just because we have enough people, but because our people are aligned — in terms of quality standards, messaging, and the overall offering.
We place a strong emphasis on aligning through Track Owners, learning objectives, and so on. That allows us to deliver globally, and at a consistent level of quality. If we manage to do that, we will have built something meaningful — not just for ourselves, that’s obvious — but for many companies.
We will have helped organizations transition from where they are today to a state where they are much better equipped to handle the massive changes happening in the world around them. If we succeed in that, then I believe we will have achieved something truly impactful. There is still a lot of work ahead, but I think we are on the right path.
Tim Klein
It is definitely not a sure thing. But as I mentioned earlier, I was quite critical at first and asked some tough questions. When I ask critical questions, that is usually the highest form of appreciation I can show for an idea. Because if I do not ask critical questions, then I am not really interested. I would not invest my time otherwise.
By now, I am completely convinced by this approach. Of course, it is still an experiment in the sense of “let’s see how it goes.” But what I see among the roughly 80 international Ambassadors is a group of people — many of whom are from my own network — that I deeply respect. These are professionals who do excellent work, from the DACH region and from around the world.
I do not know all of them yet, but I am getting to know many through the Ambassador calls and exchanges. And everyone I have met so far, I can recommend without hesitation. I really hope I will not be negatively surprised. But I do not expect that to happen, because the structure and system you have built behind the scenes — the platform, the exchanges, the collaboration — all of that makes a very solid impression so far.
That is why I am now fully on board. You could say I am all in. Thank you, Sohrab, for this in-depth conversation and for sharing your insights into this transition you have actively driven. You are the driving force behind the idea. You have built a strong network and brought together a lot of people. And we should really emphasize this: many CSTs and PSTs — Certified Scrum Trainers and Professional Scrum Trainers from the Scrum Alliance and Scrum.org — are already involved.
There are also Kanban trainers, Design Thinking experts, and many others. So this is not just about a former Scrum Trainer who stepped away from his mandate and is now starting something new. You can actually keep your mandate and still join this network.
Many people have done exactly that. This goes far beyond Scrum. That is what this network aims to offer. We will include some links in the show notes where you can find more information or take a first look at what is being offered. The external presentation will continue to grow in the coming months.
Maybe this small podcast can help spread the word a little further. In that spirit, I am very much looking forward to closer collaboration within this new network, Sohrab. And I wish you all the best — personally and professionally — for this bold step, for this venture you are now taking on. We will certainly do our part to contribute to its success. Thank you for the conversation.
Sohrab Salimi
Thank you, Tim. I really enjoyed it. Talk soon.
